Another 4e hate thread

[Josh_Kablack]

Okay, since I just wrote a rant in favor of 4e on that other thread, here's a bitchfest about crap you guys have missed:

1. Blast vs Burst.

I can only imagine the design meeting here:

Mike Mearls: Hey, let's use a pair of one-syllable keywords that have the same starting and ending sounds and cover a similar patch of the rules yet function in ways that differ substantially mechanically. that won't confuse anyone shouting across a table full of gamers, will it?

Keith Baker: Whatever man, I'll just say it's fine because I can houserule it later.


2. Effect Timing

Here's what half a round of 4e tends to look like in play:

Josh: Okay, so at the start of my turn I take 5 poison damage, I regen from Longtooth Shifting, I heal from Consecrated Ground, I spend an action point to use Astral Seal
Mike: Wait, I'm within 5 of you, you get to add my Int mod to the attack roll
Josh: Okay so I Astral seal at +5, it hits, that Gnoll takes -2 to all defenses until the end of my next turn. Now that I've lowered it's defenses, I hit it with Font of Tears so it's dazed (save ends) and at -2 to attack until the end of it's next turn.
Mike: My turn, I use Commanders Strike, Brian have your minotaur make a basic attack
Brian: Sweet. I hit the gnoll with a basic attack,
Josh: Remember that it's dazed and at -2 to defenses on top of that
brian: Okay I hit
Josh: Gain a bunch of HP, and did you remember to gain your HP from Consecrated Ground?
Brian: No, was that at the start of my turn?
Mike: It's not your turn, I had other stuff to do. I use Inspiring Word on Leon's character and I move back 5 squares.
DM: Okay, gnoll's turn
Josh: It takes consecrated ground damage
Aaron: And I had set it on fire - it takes continuing damage. Plus every time it takes fire damage it takes an extra 5
DM: Okay, Aaron, are you done? Because it's Brian's turn next
Leon: Wait, did I get skipped here?
DM: Oh sorry, my bad, this is all on the Gnoll's turn. He takes damage. He's dazed so he goes to attack the cleric
Brian: Sweet, I had marked him with the basic attack, so that triggers combat challenge, If I hit him, and his attack fails.
DM: Okay, Brian, are you done, because it's Aaron's turn next
Leon: wait, you're skipping me again
Brian: No, he's skipping me, I go after the Gnoll
Leon: but you just went twice in a row.
Brian: I roll a 1, so he gets to attack Josh.
Josh: He's dazed and at -2 from font of tears
DM: Okay, with the -2 he misses, his turn's over, he rolls to save against being on fire he fails, he rolls another one against the daze, he makes that one. Anything else he needs to save against? Going once? going twice. gone.
Brian: I remember to heal from the consecrate, I shift around to flank
Josh: To flank you need to move more than one, you can't shift
Brian: fine, I'll take the OA.
DM: He just hits you
Brian: Was that counting the -2 from Josh's daily?
Josh (looking it up) No, that ended at the end of his turn, when he saved against the daze.
Brain: Okay I take some damage. "That the best you can do?" I'll show you real pain!!!"
Brian: I rolled crappy. I think I miss if the -2 went away already.
Josh: No, he's still -2 to defenses that's until the end of *my*next turn, just the -2 to attack went away at the end of his turn.
Brian: Then I hit!


I get that the idea was to keep people engaged when it wasn't there turn - but the combination of interrupts, triggers and OAs with effects that can expire at the start or end of either the originator's or target's turn results in a confusing mess all too often. The timing on continuing effects need to be standardized and more importantly easy to understand instead of the confusing mess it turns into now.

[Doom]

Heh, you've only scratched the surface; pretty sure somehere in TGD I listed around 20 different on/off effects that blinked in and out every turn during a fight against some Yuan-Ti (not even one of the orcs/ghouls/gelatinous cube/animated lamp/tire trap encounters recommended by the MM, but a credible mix of monsters).

[God_of_Awesome]

Oh sweet jesus, I just hate the rules for all the editions. But noone ever wants to fucking play magic tea party except me and a couple other people. But I slap '3.5' on the cover and the players come rolling, lolling and trolling in like a goddamn tidal wave.

Then I have to tell me I have to figure out how much MOTHER FUCKING GOLD they get at so-and-so level. I look up their class NO MENTION, look up equipment NO GODDAMN MENTION and look up the index and nothing labeled GOLD HERE. GODDAMN I FUCKING HATE GOLD.

[DragonChild]

Josh, how do you reccommend problem 2 be fixed? Or rather, how should an ideal system work?

[erik]

Have effects be on the turn of the person who caused them. That would be a crap load easier to track. The person who causes an effect simply looks at the list of effects that go off when their turn comes up again and choosing to delay won't stop them from going off, just delays your next set of actions. BAM.

[Kaelik]

Then I have to tell me I have to figure out how much MOTHER FUCKING GOLD they get at so-and-so level. I look up their class NO MENTION, look up equipment NO GODDAMN MENTION and look up the index and nothing labeled GOLD HERE. GODDAMN I FUCKING HATE GOLD.

You only have to figure out that it's on page 137* of the DMG once, then you can just remember.

*That's the number I type into my PDF, page number may vary by +-3.

[Josh_Kablack]

Josh, how do you reccommend problem 2 be fixed? Or rather, how should an ideal system work?

I think the answer is some combination of:

1. Standardize continuing effects to always happen on either the generator or target's turn or during a specific CCG-esque "effects phase" during each round. For bookkeeping purposes it doesn't matter which you pick - but put everything on the same timing for ease of reference.

2. Rewrite everything and hand out a lot fewer abilities with triggered or short-term continuing timing.

3. If you are going to go to a CCG-style game, actually use cards for powers that players can throw down onto the battlemat to interrupt, and which stay in an area on the battlemat until their effect goes away. This seems minor, but the visual reference is a huge aid in tracking such things.

4. Find a more sober group of gamers. (Speaking of which, don't I still owe you that beer? )

[DragonChild]

1. Standardize continuing effects to always happen on either the generator or target's turn or during a specific CCG-esque "effects phase" during each round. For bookkeeping purposes it doesn't matter which you pick - but put everything on the same timing for ease of reference.

As a DM, I found effects that last until the generator's turn as really a pain in the ass to keep track of, both as a DM and a player. Especially when it's on the end of the generator's turn. I much prefer the "gone at the end of your action" effects like saving throws. On the other hand, I realize you need them to work that way for defensive penalty effects.

2. Rewrite everything and hand out a lot fewer abilities with triggered or short-term continuing timing.

Yeah, nice, but it seems like these abilities also lead to the most strategy and such. Although I'm wondering if you can't just make EVERYTHING a "Save ends", "End of (who I just targeted's next turn)", or "Here fellow player, have a bennie. Toss this in to activate the effect".

3. If you are going to go to a CCG-style game, actually use cards for powers that players can throw down onto the battlemat to interrupt, and which stay in an area on the battlemat until their effect goes away. This seems minor, but the visual reference is a huge aid in tracking such things.

I really like this, especially if the cards are visually appealing with pictures and such. Not so great for online games, though.

4. Find a more sober group of gamers.

Man, soberity has nothing to do with it. In my 4e game, at level 11, I routinely have to deal with:

-The ranger who 1/enc interrupts an adjacent enemy who's attacking
-The ranger's interrupt 1/enc when he's hit.
-The ranger's attack that causes vulnerability (yet isn't caused vulnerability, but has virtually identicle mechanics) until the end of his next turn. Such a pain in the ass mechanic, as I always have to ask if PCs are counting it or not, and I KNOW this leads to a lot of incorrect math when it's used.
-The fighter's intterupting mark. And no, that's not an oppertunity attack, we went over that the past six sessions, don't you guys ever listen to me? Yes, I KNOW how dumb and confusing that is.
-The fighter's "I damage anyone who begins a turn next to me" attack.
-The fighter's shield that lets him trip people attacking him. Sigh.
-The barbarian who interrupts anyone who attacks her, once per encounter.
-Who also gets a free attack on a crit, which is more confusing when she crits when it's not her turn.
-And oh yeah, whenever she bloodies someone, that person is at -2 defense against the next attack against them.
-And when she kills someone, everyone is at -2 defense until the end of her next turn.
-And I'm supposed to be able to keep track of both of those, which is especially hard when both go off at once.
-The warlock's auto-damage zones. Used to be two of them, now only one, luckily.
-The warlock's "you get hurt if you move" effect.
-The warlock's "you get hurt if I get hurt" effect.
-The warlord's Hammer and Anvil and similiar effects.
-The artificer's auto-damage zone.

So yeah. A LOT of acting when it isn't your turn, I didn't even mention half of the effects I need to keep track of as a DM (including many other saving throws, like vs prone, and many other "until the end of..." like weakened) and I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting some stuff. No alcohol involved in getting this stuff confused.

(Speaking of which, don't I still owe you that beer? )

Man, I am a horrible person when it comes to maintaning contacts. I really should have talked to you sooner. I actually am going to Pitt right now. And while my 21st was this August, I don't drink alcohol, so no beer.

[erik]

As a DM, I found effects that last until the generator's turn as really a pain in the ass to keep track of, both as a DM and a player. Especially when it's on the end of the generator's turn. I much prefer the "gone at the end of your action" effects like saving throws. On the other hand, I realize you need them to work that way for defensive penalty effects.

It helps if you have little cards for the powers and just flip them up in front of the player as a reminder.

[K]

-The ranger who 1/enc interrupts an adjacent enemy who's attacking
-The ranger's interrupt 1/enc when he's hit.
-The ranger's attack that causes vulnerability (yet isn't caused vulnerability, but has virtually identicle mechanics) until the end of his next turn. Such a pain in the ass mechanic, as I always have to ask if PCs are counting it or not, and I KNOW this leads to a lot of incorrect math when it's used.
-The fighter's intterupting mark. And no, that's not an oppertunity attack, we went over that the past six sessions, don't you guys ever listen to me? Yes, I KNOW how dumb and confusing that is.
-The fighter's "I damage anyone who begins a turn next to me" attack.
-The fighter's shield that lets him trip people attacking him. Sigh.
-The barbarian who interrupts anyone who attacks her, once per encounter.
-Who also gets a free attack on a crit, which is more confusing when she crits when it's not her turn.
-And oh yeah, whenever she bloodies someone, that person is at -2 defense against the next attack against them.
-And when she kills someone, everyone is at -2 defense until the end of her next turn.
-And I'm supposed to be able to keep track of both of those, which is especially hard when both go off at once.
-The warlock's auto-damage zones. Used to be two of them, now only one, luckily.
-The warlock's "you get hurt if you move" effect.
-The warlock's "you get hurt if I get hurt" effect.
-The warlord's Hammer and Anvil and similiar effects.
-The artificer's auto-damage zone.

So yeah. A LOT of acting when it isn't your turn, I didn't even mention half of the effects I need to keep track of as a DM (including many other saving throws, like vs prone, and many other "until the end of..." like weakened) and I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting some stuff. No alcohol involved in getting this stuff confused.

Yeh, even if I had cards to cover all those effects, I still think I'd end up playing Smash Brothers at some point. It's a lot to keep track of, and I don't care about most of it.

When is WotC going to stop making tabletop games that mimic CRPGs or CCGs and just make games that are good tabletop games?

[DragonChild]

I will admit, some of them are good for play.

The ranger's vulnerability, while horribly interacting rules wise, does change how the other PCs react and encourage them to do certain things.
The fighter needs his mark effects.
The warlock zones are an interesting tactical element.

But some things, like the barbarian -2 defense abilities, and everything when taken as a WHOLE, are just too much. I wonder if it's because my party is very heavily offensive focus, and not very buff-focused? There's very little stuff like Rigtheous Brand going on, and instead I have a very large party that focuses on applying penalties to enemies. That may be the problem. Although I still feel that doesn't excuse stuff like some of the warlock's powers that deal 2d6 damage if the enemy moves. It's questionable what all applies to it (I think how I ruled and what the player remember to add are totally different, and the character builder is no help here), but even than dealing like 2d6+3 damage at level 11 is not enough to make the enemy NOT move if they were going to anyway. So it's an extra complication, and not very interesting.

(also, good lord that last post was barely comprehensible. I need to stop posting at 3am)

When is WotC going to stop making tabletop games that mimic CRPGs or CCGs and just make games that are good tabletop games?

I don't think there is an "easy" solution here. I've been working on a system of my own on the side (likely to be posted mid-december), and writing up new abilities is HARD. If you have any insight on the way to design abilities that make them tactically interesting and doesn't run into this problem, I'd like to hear it, and I think it would make a good thread. And I don't mean that sarcastically, as I do use and enjoy your work.

[RandomCasualty2]

Josh, how do you reccommend problem 2 be fixed? Or rather, how should an ideal system work?

One way of handling it as a quick fix is that you definitely want to make all the bonuses require that the PCs remember them to actually get them. Pretend that each bonus has to be activated each round with an action. If you forget that you get a +2 to init from being within 5 squares of the warlord and don't add it in, then you lost the bonus. Never try to reverse apply bonuses people forgot, because that will make the game impossibly slow. Most of the problem comes from people forgetting they had a +1 or +2 bonus somewhere. Whcih is why I like the basic idea of, if you forget it, it's gone. This is somewhat heavy handed, but it may actually add a bit more rules mastery to your game and get players to pay attention a bit more. Similarly, if you forget to save agasint a state, you lose the save.

In an ideal system, you'd really want to cut down on the number of conditionals. 4E is really horribly designed as a tabletop game, because it's a bunch of small ass bonuses for an obscure amount of conditional events.

The other thing is to divorce states from the guy who handed them out to you whenever possible. The save ends states aren't bad, since they happen on the turn of the person who has the state and only requires you to remember who has what state. The "Until End of Next turn" crap is what's hard, because you not only have to remember which goblin got dazed or whatever, but you also have to remember who gave him that state so you know when it ends. Remembering what ends where takes a good system of bookkeeping. It's damn hard.

In future games you want to try to limit it to one duration. I don't feel the 4E save mechanic is a bad thing, and that's probably fine for most effects. Anything else should be until end of encounter. The UEoNT duration really needs to die.

[Username17]

I'm in a zone of fire that an enemy spellcaster put there. I'm going to take damage for being in it, and I'm going to take more damage if I stay in it. That's obvious. So how come I don't know if the fire will deal damage to me:

• At the beginning of my turn.
• During my Move.
• During my Standard Action.
• At the End of my turn.
• At the beginning of the spellcaster's turn.
• At the point the spellcaster uses a Minor Action.
• At the point the spellcaster uses a Standard Action.
• At the end of the Spellcaster's turn.

Auto damage zones seriously trigger on all eight of those, and it further divides into ones that murder pinball and ones that don't. It's a zone. It's on fire. Why can't there be a single point in time when it resolves? There are literally seven more check points than there need to be to check if that fire damage goes off.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

Never try to reverse apply bonuses people forgot, because that will make the game impossibly slow. Most of the problem comes from people forgetting they had a +1 or +2 bonus somewhere. Whcih is why I like the basic idea of, if you forget it, it's gone.

In the last 4E game I'm running for a group of people (because I'm moving soon halfway across the US), the Bravura Warlord had to continually remind people of her Command Presence. So what was I supposed to do here? Just tell people to shut it?

[DragonChild]

It's one thing when someone says "I'm using an action point" to tell them about it. It's another to do it when the turn has already ended. There's a guy in my gaming group who will sometimes try and add in actions, on the basis of "Well, if I knew..." even after enemies have gone, and it pisses me off to no end.

Or to apply it to the other warlord benefit - when everyone rolls init, tell them you give them a +2. But after the DM has called out the first initiative, don't ask him to modify stuff because you forgot it.

[shau]

Having everyone move towards being a striker really helps with number 2. Don't take the power that let's all your allies shift one space, inflicts a minus 2 penalty to defenses, and adds you charisma score to melee attacks. Just take powers that murder people's face off.

The "you only get the bonuses you can recall on yur turn" actually works really bad. I have seen it in play, and basically what happens is that people start making notes and looking up things at the table. That doesn't sound too bad, but try to imagine what its like having that one guy who always seems out of it look up a power or ask about every time someone does anything. People also begin to misremember things in surprisingly advantageous ways. And fairly long arguments start when they get caught.

[Psychic Robot]

To keep track of bonuses, my group and I write them on a whiteboard. (This is Pathfinder, mind you.) Things get complicated for most of the players when I've hasted everyone, the bard is singing, the ranger is fighting his favored enemies, the paladin is smiting, and the ranged characters are within Point Blank Shot range. I can't imagine how we'd do 4e.

[Judging__Eagle]

....

I think it's the confusion of the gameplay, that makes it exciting.

This confusion also masks the fact that the game really has some major flaws.

That's probably why 4ailtards are 4ailtards. Shit is going on, all the time, there's no sitting there, thinking about what you can do in your round. They're being excited, even if the game is shit.

Personally, I like games where I have to think in advance, and get rewarded for making what should be good choices. Having the game hang, and drag on, even if it's 'exciting' is pretty boring. Combat doesn't need to be very long, and realistically, it isn't. People and creatures die pretty fast in real-time; in games, they shouldn't die after forever seconds.

[Lago PARANOIA]

One thing that I use to speed to combat is to implement surrenders and to use fleeing when it becomes obvious that one side is winning. For when my PCs fight mindless foes and the conclusion is pretty foregone, I just end the combat right there and have the PCs finish up however they want to.

I really don't like spending 1-3 rounds doing nothing but 'clean-up', since it bogs the game down for no reason. Unfortunately, sometimes if feels like I'm cheating the PCs out of a satisfying curbstomp by fastforwarding the curbstomp parts. Because let's face it, a lot of people find it fun to own the only hotel'd-up properties in Monopoly while the other players slowly go down the death spiral.

[Josh_Kablack]

Well I just got home after spending 3 hours using a pin vice to drill holes into the tops of minis while bleys glued pins into them - so we can now add colored beads to represent marks and status effects directly on to the minis for both mine and raindog's 4e games.

That should help a bit - and with only about another 300 man-hours, we'll have all of bley's minis pinned for 4e use.

[erik]

Damn. At that point I say just set up a computer projection system for everything except the pcs. I am sure penny arcade will do that eventually.

[Josh_Kablack]

By eventually, you mean, "last month"

Last link in Gabe's post

or if you hate that twerp,

Here's the direct link to the demo

Sadly this is not a viable option for my current group, so we'll be continuing to drill lots and lots of itty-bitty holes.

[sake]

One thing that I use to speed to combat is to implement surrenders and to use fleeing when it becomes obvious that one side is winning. For when my PCs fight mindless foes and the conclusion is pretty foregone, I just end the combat right there and have the PCs finish up however they want to.

I did that for awhile, having Bosses surrender after being taken done to something between bloody and 1/4 hp, and having the last few intelligent creatures flee when all their other buddies have died. But my players would just kill the guy after interragating him for info, and actually bitched about how I always had people try to (as they soon got very effective at stopping runners) run away rather than just fight to the death like mindless robots.

I've don't even try to keep up with half the piddly 4E debuffs when DMing, if the pc that caused them can't be bothered to remember it, I sure the hell won't.

[Doom]

Well I just got home after spending 3 hours using a pin vice to drill holes into the tops of minis while bleys glued pins into them - so we can now add colored beads to represent marks and status effects directly on to the minis for both mine and raindog's 4e games.

That should help a bit - and with only about another 300 man-hours, we'll have all of bley's minis pinned for 4e use.

Just go to Aleatools.com and buy their uber black plastic box set.

Granted, you'll still pop a blood vessel trying to keep track of what the changing effects you'll attribute to the dozen+ colors you're using, but you'll have that problem with beads, too, without blowing indefinite man-hours drilling holes.

[Josh_Kablack]

Just go to Aleatools.com and buy their uber black plastic box set.

Thanks, good to know about that.

but

1. Rebasing the plastic D&D minis with their magnetic bases will take a comparable amount of time, (and heck of a lot more materials cost for the number of minis involved)

2. Colors underneath are a heck of a lot less visible across the table than colors above the mini.

3. Needing different materials for man-sized, large, huge and "plundered for a bankrupt toy store" minis would be another issue.

4. Plus those would interact poorly with the flight counters we already use
(razzen' frazzn' flying mounts grrr.)


Between our group's truly obsessive terrain/minis guy; the pinning being a task we can farm out to players in three different games whenever their characters are KO'ed or out of the spotlight; and the occasional session of free beer if you make some holes and play with some superglue - we'll probably grind through this task with relative ease.